why don't you get it!?!?!?!?

[lokizmom]

all of my life whenever i had to borrow money from someone for something i *had* to pay it back. it's ingrained in my system. there's no way for me to get rid of it. when you say to me "i'll take care of it" or "i'll pay for it", that tells me that at some point in the future you will want the money back. that's just the way it works. why dont you understand that?!?!?! just accept that fact! i *can't* go somewhere if i dont have the money in my pocket. i dont want to be a burden to my friends. i dont want others to think that i'm a moocher! if i can't afford to go...i can't go. that's the bottom line. and some day you're going to learn that there's no way around it. yeah i'm gonna be depressed and resentful that everyone around me has money and i dont...but if that's what has to happen then that's what has to happen. at some point i'm going to find a job somewhere that pays me money enough to pay everyone back. as it is...i owe my mom and my sister nearly 3 months worth of rent! not to mention that my student loan people keep calling me and i have a car payment and a phone payment to make every month! i dont know how i'm going to do it, but everyone is going to be paid back eventually. i've been keeping track in my head of those people who have paid for this or bought me that. and you will get the money back for it. just accept it....'cos that's the way my life has been and will always be. i can't even tell you how many times my mother has brought up the fact that she used her money to move me to so cal, and then move me back and then move me to vegas and then move me back. i still have all of that money looming over my head. so...yeah...i owe everyone a lot of money...and eventually it will be paid back.

Comments

[lokiz-mom.livejournal.com]

it honestly makes it worse. i dont like taking gifts from people because there's no reason for them to spend money on me unless it's a birthday or something like that.

[lokiz-mom.livejournal.com]

can you please explain it to the rest of the people in my life who don't get it? 'cos i'm blue in the face from trying to explain.

[johno.livejournal.com]

And in response, I say...

Swallow your pride and get over the "Friends paying for meals/going out", is charity or a loan or because they are feeling sorry for you. They are doing it because they want your compainionship. They like you and your company.

Consider the meal/night out a gift, or if you insist on thinking of it as a "loan" then pay it forward when you can.

Today a friend buys you lunch and a movie.
Tomorrow/Next Week/Next Year, you buy a differet friend lunch and a movie.

[lokiz-mom.livejournal.com]

it's not about pride. it's about how i was raised. there's always something for something...there's never a free ride

[thespatula.livejournal.com]

Consider It payment for the joy of your company? Services rendered, ya hear? :D

[drewkitty.livejournal.com]

I know this bit of damage fairly well. Forgive if I indulge in Geek Answer Syndrome. Some toxic people use small acts of kindness as tokens in a toxic relationship. Typically this is accompanied by a demand for gratitude, obedience or even holding still for abuse. When raised by (and dependent on) a parent who uses this technique, one learns to examine anything "free" from many angles, because bitter experience has taught that everything comes with strings.

There is no free lunch, nothing is ever given for free, and love (or the pretense of love) is a bargaining chip. Even hugs are weapons in this particular war. This damages one's ability to work well with others, one's friendships, and especially one's relationships and love life.

There is the constant mental burden of "keeping score" for fear that if one does not, that one will be trout-slapped by someone playing the emotional blackmail card. Even though one is assured that this will not happen, even the assurance can be upsetting because naturally, the toxic people who play this game are most insistent about "oh, this one's really a freebie" until it comes time to pull hard on the line and set the hook.

This is the world in which I have walked ten miles rather than accepted a ride; walked away from a full plate of food when I haven't eaten for four days; and in which I am pleased that my parents are deceased. Because as much as these events are unpleasant, they are less unpleasant -- provably so! -- than allowing another to dictate to my will with a threat masked as a bribe.

Now all of this is puzzling and even a bit scary to generous people who give freely either because they believe it's right, because it's "bread cast on the waters" (i.e. some general good will come of living that way, but nothing specific is desired or implied) or because it's small change to them, or out of a way to boost one's own self-worth . . . or in most noble fashion, because everyone should live this way. Generous people, it's great that you are out there and I thank you for breathing and being who you are -- but your behavior is equally puzzling to those of us who carry a scales in our baggage at all times.

In the Jewish faith, the highest act of kindness is to give anonymously to someone whom you do not know. It is still kind, but of a lesser degree, to give anonymously where you know the recipient . . . or conversely, for you not to know who you've helped, although they know it. Least kind is to give where each knows the other. The relationship thus formed is part of the reward, making the gift less of a mitzvah.

I will add that in normal friendships, people are generous all the time when they can afford to be. When they can't afford to be that generous, is when drama starts.

"Payment for joy of company" can be a partial shortcut, but carries with it the burden of having to act pleasant and agreeable when one would rather be a surly bastard and/or bitch.

"Pay it forward" is more helpful because it comes with the gift of choice. You don't have to pay it back, this is like taking out a loan. You can pay it to whoever you damn well want.

>> Swallow your pride

There have been times in my life where I'd rather die than swallow my pride. I have certainly taken great chances with my life rather than allow the one bedrock, the one final reserve I have, which is my self-image (pride, as it were) to be eroded for no good reason.

Of course, there is pride and there is stupidity, and one can easily be mistaken for the other. Sometimes one just should "get over it, Mary" and a friend is a person who can be trusted to tell you so.

>> and get over the "Friends paying for meals/going out", is charity or a loan or because they are feeling sorry for you.

Charity strikes at pride. Loan creates a connection and/or burden that one might not want to accept. Feeling sorry for is like a monster body blow to the pride.

>> They are doing it because they want your compainionship. They like you and your company.

Which carries the implication of "a dinner and then you pay for dinner after I take you home . . ." not comforting to those who have been put in that situation.

You may not MEAN it that way (and almost certainly do not) but that is how it SOUNDS.

drat LJ posting limits!

[drewkitty.livejournal.com]

Several times recently, I've had conversations in which I've had to explain to people (both at work and in my personal life), "Yes, I know you meant X, but the person you were talking to thought you meant Y, and beating them over the head with your explanation of why you were right and they were wrong did NOT help matters."

Better to correct (briefly) the mistake, apologize and move forward, preferably in such a way that your true meaning is shown in actions and not more words.


Speaking of mistakes, I have a couple of odd questions for J9:

1) In what way did your mother benefit from paying out this money to move you around?

If she benefited, she already got her money's worth (and probably much more than that) so you can stop feeling guilty now. Really.

2) If I offered to take you out for coffee, would you feel that I was paying for your time? Or can you accept that the coffee is a gesture somewhere between the convenience of a neutral setting, and a way to set social expectations. Would an offer of dinner at a classy restaurant carry a different set of baggage? Why or why not?

Thinking about damage -- rather than being stuck in bird-banging-head-against-glass reactions -- is the only way to fix it.

Be well and good luck.

Re: drat LJ posting limits!

[lokiz-mom.livejournal.com]

finally FINALLY!!! someone gets it!!!!!!!!! would you mind if i repost this as a quote in my own journal so that those people who dont read the comments will see it?

as for the questions...
1)she didn't benefit actually...she just let me do what i wanted to do and she paid for it. the only way i can see that she might have benefited is when i came home and she could manipulate me easier.

2)if you asked me out for coffee i would have to pay for myself...or pay you back. dinner at a classy restaurant is bigger...that means you want something more than just "friendship" it comes with the need to do something just as classy for you...or the thought that sex will pay back what i've been given.

Re: drat LJ posting limits!

[drewkitty.livejournal.com]

>> the only way i can see that she might have benefited is when i came home and she could manipulate me easier.

Thought so.

>> if you asked me out for coffee i would have to pay for myself...

Ok, consider yourself asked out for a cup of $BEVERAGE at your convenience.

>> or pay you back. dinner at a classy restaurant is bigger...that means you want something more than just "friendship" it comes with the need to do something just as classy for you...or the thought that sex will pay back what i've been given.

Again, assuming that we didn't go Dutch. Note that your thoughts of payback immediately led to sex. This is cultural baggage in two dimensions -- the idea that a man's interest in a woman is only one thing, and that sex is a product to be hoarded rather than a gift to be shared.

I don't have much use for the techniques of postmodernism, such as deconstructionism. But they're great for unpacking baggage. Fare thee well.

Re: drat LJ posting limits!

[drewkitty.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes unlimited permission to repost as long as "drewkitty" is attached and it's quoted in its entirety. And thanks for the compliment.

Re: drat LJ posting limits!

[lokiz-mom.livejournal.com]

AWESOME!

thanks

[dragonstarr71.livejournal.com]

I never in my wildest thoughts wanted to bring you any pain today and if even just a little of it was my fault. I don't know how to say I am sorry. I was raised in the way that if someone needs something and I can help that I do it. I have had many people do it for me, and so this is my way of "paying it forward" so to speak. Again I am sorry if I made you feel bad. That was not my intention. I care about you very much and I was just trying to show you that. I hope you understand. I do understand where you are coming from too.

[lokiz-mom.livejournal.com]

**hugs** you did nothing of the sort. i was already in this mindset before we talked. i know that everyone around me is just trying to do the right thing...what they believe is right, and i appreciate that. i couldn't be happier right now with the friends who are surrounding me with love. you didn't make me feel bad at all... what you did was make me feel loved.

[dragonstarr71.livejournal.com]

(((big hugs back)))That is all I wanted to do. I hope to see you at the BBQ.

Love, Light, and Faerie Blessings.