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lokizmomin response to my original post why dont you get it?!?!?! ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
drewkitty replied ever so eloquently with this comment:
I know this bit of damage fairly well. Forgive if I indulge in Geek Answer Syndrome. Some toxic people use small acts of kindness as tokens in a toxic relationship. Typically this is accompanied by a demand for gratitude, obedience or even holding still for abuse. When raised by (and dependent on) a parent who uses this technique, one learns to examine anything "free" from many angles, because bitter experience has taught that everything comes with strings.
this is what i've been trying to explain to you all but some of you just aren't getting it
and he continues
There is no free lunch, nothing is ever given for free, and love (or the pretense of love) is a bargaining chip. Even hugs are weapons in this particular war. This damages one's ability to work well with others, one's friendships, and especially one's relationships and love life.
There is the constant mental burden of "keeping score" for fear that if one does not, that one will be trout-slapped by someone playing the emotional blackmail card. Even though one is assured that this will not happen, even the assurance can be upsetting because naturally, the toxic people who play this game are most insistent about "oh, this one's really a freebie" until it comes time to pull hard on the line and set the hook.
This is the world in which I have walked ten miles rather than accepted a ride; walked away from a full plate of food when I haven't eaten for four days; and in which I am pleased that my parents are deceased. Because as much as these events are unpleasant, they are less unpleasant -- provably so! -- than allowing another to dictate to my will with a threat masked as a bribe.
Now all of this is puzzling and even a bit scary to generous people who give freely either because they believe it's right, because it's "bread cast on the waters" (i.e. some general good will come of living that way, but nothing specific is desired or implied) or because it's small change to them, or out of a way to boost one's own self-worth . . . or in most noble fashion, because everyone should live this way. Generous people, it's great that you are out there and I thank you for breathing and being who you are -- but your behavior is equally puzzling to those of us who carry a scales in our baggage at all times.
i understand that you dont get it..but understand that this is what i'm dealing with.
In the Jewish faith, the highest act of kindness is to give anonymously to someone whom you do not know. It is still kind, but of a lesser degree, to give anonymously where you know the recipient . . . or conversely, for you not to know who you've helped, although they know it. Least kind is to give where each knows the other. The relationship thus formed is part of the reward, making the gift less of a mitzvah.
I will add that in normal friendships, people are generous all the time when they can afford to be. When they can't afford to be that generous, is when drama starts.
"Payment for joy of company" can be a partial shortcut, but carries with it the burden of having to act pleasant and agreeable when one would rather be a surly bastard and/or bitch.
"Pay it forward" is more helpful because it comes with the gift of choice. You don't have to pay it back, this is like taking out a loan. You can pay it to whoever you damn well want.
>> Swallow your pride
There have been times in my life where I'd rather die than swallow my pride. I have certainly taken great chances with my life rather than allow the one bedrock, the one final reserve I have, which is my self-image (pride, as it were) to be eroded for no good reason.
Of course, there is pride and there is stupidity, and one can easily be mistaken for the other. Sometimes one just should "get over it, Mary" and a friend is a person who can be trusted to tell you so.
telling me to get over it and seeing that i do or don't are two different things. i may not be *able* to get over it and sometimes you just have to accept it
>> and get over the "Friends paying for meals/going out", is charity or a loan or because they are feeling sorry for you.
Charity strikes at pride. Loan creates a connection and/or burden that one might not want to accept. Feeling sorry for is like a monster body blow to the pride.
>> They are doing it because they want your compainionship. They like you and your company.
Which carries the implication of "a dinner and then you pay for dinner after I take you home . . ." not comforting to those who have been put in that situation.
You may not MEAN it that way (and almost certainly do not) but that is how it SOUNDS.
Several times recently, I've had conversations in which I've had to explain to people (both at work and in my personal life), "Yes, I know you meant X, but the person you were talking to thought you meant Y, and beating them over the head with your explanation of why you were right and they were wrong did NOT help matters."
Better to correct (briefly) the mistake, apologize and move forward, preferably in such a way that your true meaning is shown in actions and not more words.
Speaking of mistakes, I have a couple of odd questions for J9:
1) In what way did your mother benefit from paying out this money to move you around?
If she benefited, she already got her money's worth (and probably much more than that) so you can stop feeling guilty now. Really.
to which i replied:
she didn't benefit actually...she just let me do what i wanted to do and she paid for it. the only way i can see that she might have benefited is when i came home and she could manipulate me easier.
2) If I offered to take you out for coffee, would you feel that I was paying for your time? Or can you accept that the coffee is a gesture somewhere between the convenience of a neutral setting, and a way to set social expectations. Would an offer of dinner at a classy restaurant carry a different set of baggage? Why or why not?
to which i replied:
if you asked me out for coffee i would have to pay for myself...or pay you back. dinner at a classy restaurant is bigger...that means you want something more than just "friendship" it comes with the need to do something just as classy for you...or the thought that sex will pay back what i've been given.
Thinking about damage -- rather than being stuck in bird-banging-head-against-glass reactions -- is the only way to fix it.
Be well and good luck
i hope that those of you who don't yet understand me and this way of dealing with life will come closer to some sort of understanding. i'm just not able to accept that you are willing to help me without recompense. and thank you todrewkitty for spelling it out better than my feeble mind could have.
drewkitty replied ever so eloquently with this comment:I know this bit of damage fairly well. Forgive if I indulge in Geek Answer Syndrome. Some toxic people use small acts of kindness as tokens in a toxic relationship. Typically this is accompanied by a demand for gratitude, obedience or even holding still for abuse. When raised by (and dependent on) a parent who uses this technique, one learns to examine anything "free" from many angles, because bitter experience has taught that everything comes with strings.
this is what i've been trying to explain to you all but some of you just aren't getting it
and he continues
There is no free lunch, nothing is ever given for free, and love (or the pretense of love) is a bargaining chip. Even hugs are weapons in this particular war. This damages one's ability to work well with others, one's friendships, and especially one's relationships and love life.
There is the constant mental burden of "keeping score" for fear that if one does not, that one will be trout-slapped by someone playing the emotional blackmail card. Even though one is assured that this will not happen, even the assurance can be upsetting because naturally, the toxic people who play this game are most insistent about "oh, this one's really a freebie" until it comes time to pull hard on the line and set the hook.
This is the world in which I have walked ten miles rather than accepted a ride; walked away from a full plate of food when I haven't eaten for four days; and in which I am pleased that my parents are deceased. Because as much as these events are unpleasant, they are less unpleasant -- provably so! -- than allowing another to dictate to my will with a threat masked as a bribe.
Now all of this is puzzling and even a bit scary to generous people who give freely either because they believe it's right, because it's "bread cast on the waters" (i.e. some general good will come of living that way, but nothing specific is desired or implied) or because it's small change to them, or out of a way to boost one's own self-worth . . . or in most noble fashion, because everyone should live this way. Generous people, it's great that you are out there and I thank you for breathing and being who you are -- but your behavior is equally puzzling to those of us who carry a scales in our baggage at all times.
i understand that you dont get it..but understand that this is what i'm dealing with.
In the Jewish faith, the highest act of kindness is to give anonymously to someone whom you do not know. It is still kind, but of a lesser degree, to give anonymously where you know the recipient . . . or conversely, for you not to know who you've helped, although they know it. Least kind is to give where each knows the other. The relationship thus formed is part of the reward, making the gift less of a mitzvah.
I will add that in normal friendships, people are generous all the time when they can afford to be. When they can't afford to be that generous, is when drama starts.
"Payment for joy of company" can be a partial shortcut, but carries with it the burden of having to act pleasant and agreeable when one would rather be a surly bastard and/or bitch.
"Pay it forward" is more helpful because it comes with the gift of choice. You don't have to pay it back, this is like taking out a loan. You can pay it to whoever you damn well want.
>> Swallow your pride
There have been times in my life where I'd rather die than swallow my pride. I have certainly taken great chances with my life rather than allow the one bedrock, the one final reserve I have, which is my self-image (pride, as it were) to be eroded for no good reason.
Of course, there is pride and there is stupidity, and one can easily be mistaken for the other. Sometimes one just should "get over it, Mary" and a friend is a person who can be trusted to tell you so.
telling me to get over it and seeing that i do or don't are two different things. i may not be *able* to get over it and sometimes you just have to accept it
>> and get over the "Friends paying for meals/going out", is charity or a loan or because they are feeling sorry for you.
Charity strikes at pride. Loan creates a connection and/or burden that one might not want to accept. Feeling sorry for is like a monster body blow to the pride.
>> They are doing it because they want your compainionship. They like you and your company.
Which carries the implication of "a dinner and then you pay for dinner after I take you home . . ." not comforting to those who have been put in that situation.
You may not MEAN it that way (and almost certainly do not) but that is how it SOUNDS.
Several times recently, I've had conversations in which I've had to explain to people (both at work and in my personal life), "Yes, I know you meant X, but the person you were talking to thought you meant Y, and beating them over the head with your explanation of why you were right and they were wrong did NOT help matters."
Better to correct (briefly) the mistake, apologize and move forward, preferably in such a way that your true meaning is shown in actions and not more words.
Speaking of mistakes, I have a couple of odd questions for J9:
1) In what way did your mother benefit from paying out this money to move you around?
If she benefited, she already got her money's worth (and probably much more than that) so you can stop feeling guilty now. Really.
to which i replied:
she didn't benefit actually...she just let me do what i wanted to do and she paid for it. the only way i can see that she might have benefited is when i came home and she could manipulate me easier.
2) If I offered to take you out for coffee, would you feel that I was paying for your time? Or can you accept that the coffee is a gesture somewhere between the convenience of a neutral setting, and a way to set social expectations. Would an offer of dinner at a classy restaurant carry a different set of baggage? Why or why not?
to which i replied:
if you asked me out for coffee i would have to pay for myself...or pay you back. dinner at a classy restaurant is bigger...that means you want something more than just "friendship" it comes with the need to do something just as classy for you...or the thought that sex will pay back what i've been given.
Thinking about damage -- rather than being stuck in bird-banging-head-against-glass reactions -- is the only way to fix it.
Be well and good luck
i hope that those of you who don't yet understand me and this way of dealing with life will come closer to some sort of understanding. i'm just not able to accept that you are willing to help me without recompense. and thank you to
drewkitty for spelling it out better than my feeble mind could have.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2007-06-06 04:35 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-06-06 04:48 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-06-06 07:07 am (UTC)Just remember if I offer to buy you a drink, cover a meal or whatever, that's all I intend or expect.
no subject
Date: 2007-06-06 08:50 am (UTC)evil man.
just remember you have some very generous friends who don't grok how you see things. these friends are racking up the points of how much work, effort, love, etc. you give out to the universe. they gift you things because they feel you deserve something to make you happy.
its figuring out who is gifting freely that is extremely hard and sucky. letting ones guard down equals possibly (probably) getting hurt again.
be yourself, live by your code, and when presented with "free gifts" try and accept them as free If You Can, and feel comfortable enough at the time.
i've come to the point of asking some people point blank if its "freely given" so i can hold them accountable to it.
but thats just me. otherwise i will assume its a debt to be paid.
ok its almost 2am, i'm babbling at you. wish i knew how to bold text on LJ.
nighters and *hugs*
no subject
Date: 2007-06-06 02:23 pm (UTC)*grins* I told you once, I can tell you again.
substitute <> for().
(b)...(/b)
italics is "i"
bold is "b"
underline is "u"
strike through is "s"
making the font very small is "small"
One free lesson in Lj text, because it still amazes me that I can!
*giggles*
Sparrow
no subject
Date: 2007-06-06 02:18 pm (UTC)the only way i can see that she might have benefited is when i came home and she could manipulate me easier.
That's a BIG one, some people do thrive on it. I suspect she's already been 'paid back' huge amounts by this. Although I doubt she'd ever admit it...
if you asked me out for coffee i would have to pay for myself...or pay you back. dinner at a classy restaurant is bigger...that means you want something more than just "friendship" it comes with the need to do something just as classy for you...or the thought that sex will pay back what I've been given.
Somebody like me? If I ask you out for coffee, it's cause I want to spend that time with you, cause I like you. If I was to ask you out to a classy restaurant, it would be for the exact same reason plus MY need to have someone with me, because if I had to go alone, I wouldn't go.
We all have our broken spots, our individual fragile places. Making space for each others' needs is part of what friendship is all about.
It's not about pity, it's about mutual liking and the knowledge that if you have those fragile points, I will be considerate of them, because I have my fragile points that need your consideration too.
*hugs* [freely offered, you don't have to take it ;-)]
Sparrow
no subject
Date: 2007-06-08 06:04 pm (UTC)quote:
she didn't benefit actually...she just let me do what i wanted to do and she paid for it. the only way i can see that she might have benefited is when i came home and she could manipulate me easier.
she used it as a leash. a loan. so she could manipulate you and feel "one up" on you later. to her that was a benefit. it may not have been intended when she made the decision to pay for something, but it tunred into that.
been there. one of the problems with my past is so many times peoplle may have started out giving me something for nothing. or a little repayment, but decided they wanted more later..
hugs, from another person who has trouble accepting gifts.
no i dont have it as bvad as that, but i know the symptoms.
for me? i found that practicing doing good anonymously. or nearly so....helped me feel better about receiving help. maybe i felt i had 'earned" it or something, but it helped.